I'm sure I'll find out that at least one of you is passionate on this subject I'll deal with today and will be shocked (and sorely disappointed) that I am not :). So, in advance and anticipation, sorry.
I've listened in on and studied for years the "raging" debate of what happens when one dies. Do they go straight to heaven (aka Gus Nichols teaching I believe) or to a waiting place (aka Guy N. Woods). Frankly both positions make some good points with various scriptures and both make some arguments I can poke some holes in. So, frankly, I don't care. It's not because I haven't had anyone die who was significant to me, I've had several. "I don't care" may sound a little strong but I mean it. I see it this way, when I die if I go to a waiting place I'm willing to wait but if I go straight to heaven I won't protest and ask to be removed. I just don't want to feel any heat - that's my only objection to cremation :).
That said I heard an interesting thought today that I've never really related to this subject before. Christ told His disciples "I go to prepare a place for you." The obvious reference is to Heaven. Now, I suppose it's possible that some of the place was already ready to "move in" but I don't get that from the text. So if one goes straight to heaven at death - what about those who died before Christ - or as it's been called the Christian age?
There are many good arguments on both sides of this discussion. And this does not trump some of what I've heard it's just another thought.
10 comments:
I often feel awkward talking to people around funerals, because many people do like to use the language about how their relative/friend is "in heaven." I'm not going to ever say, "Oh, no they're not!", but I do wrestle with this subject.
I think the problem with the view that it's already all said and done is that it doesn't leave any real significance to Jesus' return. If we're already in the sky by and by enjoying double stuffed angelic Oreos, then it doesn't make any difference whether Jesus comes back or not; the party's over there.
I think we need to make an effort to weigh 1 Corinthians 15 into the equation. It somehow does matter that I have a physical body, because my physical body will be raised and transformed.
This is an area that, unfortunately, I don't feel that Scripture has given us a clear consistent picture about. Some places give the feeling that we are immediately embraced in Abraham's bosom, while other places describe us as sleeping. One of my favorite pictures of death and eschatology is actually in Isaiah.
Where Scripture has been clear is that in death we have either a really good option or a really bad option of where we will end up, and that choice is made in the here and now.
Kind of like the old joke about not being a premillenialist or a postmillenialist, but a panmillenialist. (I don't know what will happen, but God will make it all pan out how it's supposed to.)
OK, I'll bite. I think time is a problem we have "under the sun" and texts we read about the afterlife, like all other subjects, are written from our perspective, not from the perspective of departed spirits.
Think of time as being a line that we have to stay on. But God, we learn from the passage that tells us to Him a thousand years is a day and a day is a thousand years, can look down the line from end to end, and is thus not locked into time as we are. To Him the line is a point.
I think it is the same for departed spirits. Does anyone think a departed spirit is locked into the earth's rotation around the sun? That seems a bit limiting. Do we think the realm to which the spirits go is dependent on the movements of our solar system by which we reckon time. Can you actually picture in your mind souls in hades asking one another if it's 3 o'clock?
It is conceivable to me that the departed spirit can witness Creation, the crucifixion of Christ and Judgment Day all at once by manipulating time as easily as we do a yard stick.
You might say, "But that Last Day hasn't happened yet!" Surely that is true from our perspective, locked onto the time line as we are, and we are meant to live from our perspective knowing that there will be a day that we must give an account, Jesus will return, the dead in Christ shall rise, angels will take vengence on those who don't obey the gospel, etc. All that happens on our time line. I simply don't see any reason why a spirit has to be bound by a time line it/he has escaped.
So to Mark's dilemma regarding whether to correct someone at a funeral, I see no problem. The statement about a loved one being in heaven is not a commentary on when that takes place from an earthbound perspective, but is a statement of the speaker's assurance that from the loved one's spirit's perspective, they've made it. I think they have.
I gave this explanation complete with scriptures, a diagram, circles and arrows, to the author of a certain book on the subject prior to the publishing of the book and all I got back was a statement of it all being too confusing. Maybe it is. At any rate, what once would have been difficult to comprehend (like cell phones and computers would be hard to explain to people in the first half of the last century), is easier now due to books and movies that treat time as any other factor in an equation.
The advantage of the view I am proposing is that scriptures appearing to be contradictory can be explained. From our perspective "under the sun," the loved one is "sleeping." From the perspective of the departed soul, he is "immediately embraced in Abraham's bosom.\," to use Mark's words.
Henry,
Good and interesting observation! I guess this has something to do with our perspective of God, who, as you point out, exists outside of time as we experience it. (I think that's a whole dilemma in itself, trying to envision how God manages to exist outside of our time but still works with us within our realm of time and place also.)
So as I understand you, you're saying that when we die, we immediately shift from our current-eye-view to God's-eye-view. Even as the world is heading toward its end, God already sees it as if it has happened.
I will give some thought to this.
I think in the same way. I like to think that when our soul departs this body, the next thing we witness is Christ's return. It doesn't matter if you died 500 years ago or will die in 50 years from now. God's time is not our time, but we will all MEET together in the GREAT TIME together.
Thanks for these comments! Something to think about!
I remember hearing of this debate a few years ago. I was always taught the hades theory of a waiting place which was also a separation of the righteous and the unrighteous, but this always seemed like judgment of where we would end up.
Nobody knows for sure. I have studied on this a lot. Last Sunday evening I presented a lesson on it. One thing is for sure, when you are dead, your destiny is set. Whether it means the Hadean realm or straight to heaven, the final judgment isn't going to change your final destination. There is definitely a waiting place for hell (2 Pet. 2:4). But there is no absolute on a waiting place for heaven, though I tend to believe this is also the case.
My understanding is that spirits await the resurrection in the Hadean realm. There is a separation at this point between the saved in Abraham's bosom and the lost in torment and I admit I don't understand that judgement, but when Christ returns, the dead in Christ will rise first, then the rest of the souls will be resurrected and all will go through the final judgement on that great day. I think (emphasizing "think") that the resurrection piece is key in the difference between paradise and heaven, although I definitely do not fully understand it.
Here's my uneducated, "unstudied" comment:
I just want to be prepared to go when I go. All I can do is work as hard as I can here on Earth to go to Heaven. I think I'll let God take care of the details. Thanks for the thought provoking discussion. You're good at those. :)
I don't care what your thoughts are on this! (It's a joke just in case your wondering based upon your comment of "I don't care) :)
Caleb
it seems that "Ongoing..." was an appropriate title for the post. :-)
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